Second interview – Islam,
the Punishment of our Secularism
Brother Michel-Marie: Brother Bruno, yesterday we talked about the Qurʾānic religion such as your translation reveals it to be, that is to say, a formidable heresy that claims to return to the “perfect” religion practised by Abraham, and which expresses itself by the desire to recapture Jerusalem from the Christians and restore the Temple there.
You explained to us that what gives this religion its force is its prophetism drawn from the unique biblical and evangelical Revelation that the author claims to rediscover and fulfil, but at the cost of an immense inheritance appropriation!
Is this force not being exerted in our Christian countries today? We see Islam developing in them, both insidiously and aggressively: current developments regularly give us new examples of this. There are the most conspicuous ones: attacks committed in the name of Islam, the growing ascendancy of the jihadist “dream” on a segment of Muslim youth in France; recently, we had the controversy over the “return” to France of the French Islamists who had waged jihad in Syria. But there is also Islam’s ‘socio-religious’ “colonisation” of our country by the construction of mosques, the development of Islamic institutions, etc.
So the question that must be asked is: how did this come about?
Brother Bruno: I will rather tell you why it came about; here is a lecture that our Father gave in March 1986 commenting on the events of that time. It answers your question very well:
Video excerpt: “The underlying reasons for the Muslim conquest.”
(Lecture analysing the Current Events of April 17, 1986)
What are the underlying reasons for the Muslim conquest? There are two solutions, which are of absolutely crucial importance, which obviously go against general opinion.
Obviously, if I didn’t tell you things that go against common opinion, I wouldn’t presume to give lectures and publish them! There’s no point in wasting people’s time saying what everyone else does. I say things that are absolutely not said, because people don’t want to say them; people don’t even want to know them; people don’t even want to believe them.
Catholicism has been in decline for a century, due to Modernism and Progressivism●. The Catholic Modernist no longer believes in real, concrete, exclusive truth. Yet, there is only one truth: it is the truth of the Revelation of God in Jesus Christ, founder of the Church. The Catholic Modernist no longer believes in our Creed. He only believes in it in an ideological or romantic way. Either he thinks that it consists of myths and he makes great studies on the myths of the Old and New Testament, or he believes it out of sentimentality, but all of this lacks objectivity.
Modernist subjectivity has made our religion lose its absolute character. Those who still believe this old religion are called fanatics. This is very important to note. We have become liberal in religion. At the same time – that is to say, since the 18th century and because of the French Revolution – we have become liberal in politics, that is, everywhere in the West, even in Catholic countries, a secular political society has been advocated and brought about. The ne plus ultra is for religion to be on one side and politics on the opposite, with total autonomy for both: a free Church in a free State●. Some dare to justify this pernicious error by invoking Christ’s words: “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s,” that is to say that our religion in such an attenuated way occupies the depths of our consciences, the back corners of sacristies or, at most, the church, while the whole civil order, the civil code manifests utter atheism.
As a result, such a society, in 95% of its activity – because unfortunately people only keep 5% for religion, and I am being generous! –, deals with the world of the family, the world of business, the world of money, the world of political elections and so on. This 95% is absolutely irreligious, it is not marked by Catholic power, by the predominance of the Catholic Church, by Catholic law. So, in this world, the Catholic can succeed just as well as the Protestant, the Christian as well as the Jew, the Jew as well as the Muslim, and when you start to establish such parity, it is always the last to arrive who takes the most place!
So we have a disease that is eating away at our faith and we have a disease that is destroying the sacred foundations of our society: religion is sick, politics is sick.
Believe it or not, we are so sick that we consider the good health of Islam to be savagery! Therefore, we are not close to being cured, because we consider our illness to be perfection.
Islam, for its part, preserves what was the prerogative of the Catholic religion before Modernism, before the Second Vatican Council, before the French Revolution. Islam is a fanaticism that thinks it has the truth, can you believe it! They are fanatics to the point of believing that they alone are right! We ridicule them, not because their religion is absurd and it’s really incredible that, having such an absurd religion, they believe in it with such firmness, but that is not the reason! What seems stupid to us is for someone to believe firmly that he has the true religion.
Islam has this extraordinary superiority over us for three reasons:
1) It is “fundamentalist.” This religion is fundamentalist, fanatical. It is a religion that truly thinks according to its supernatural faith, if I may say so, that Muḥammad is the prophet of God, that the Qurʾān is the revealed book, that it is the absolute truth for all men and that all other religions are false. Since they are false, they must be destroyed for the good of humanity, out of obedience to God.
2) This obviously determines their way of life. Since Allah is the true God and Muḥammad his prophet, all life, from morning to evening, all family, material, political and other activities must be dominated by the will of God. Hence you have, in Senegal, the Ayatollah of Kaolack who comes and says: “My draft constitution is the Qurʾān!” It’s frank, it’s flawless!
But for us depraved Westerners, it is unthinkable that there is not a distinction between political and religious society. They say, with exclamation marks, that it is a ‘theocratic’ or, in their jargon, a “theo-political’ society!
It’s absurd but, despite this, it’s powerful! And we are weak. Before asking the question of truth and error, they are in a position of strength and they are entering Catholic countries that are in a position of weakness like a hot knife through butter. It seems like the ultimate in civilisation, yet it is a civilisation that accepts to be defeated.
3) They are fundamentalists, fanatics and totalitarians. The whole society must be governed by the Qurʾān in a collectivist and totally absolutistic manner.
In other words, when it comes to the effectiveness of Catholicism and Islam, I say that Catholics are detaching themselves from their Christian Faith and its morals. When we believe that our faith is one faith among others and that it is a kind of manifestation of an intimate religious experience, etc., but that there are other faiths and that all of them are fraternal, we no longer value our Christian Faith, we no longer value its morals, we make ourselves very independent of it, and our society therefore opens itself up to any other custom, any other morals, any other explanation. We no longer have any reason to forbid our territory to Muslims, we no longer have any reason to keep our churches for our own use: they are deserted, we might as well lend them to Muslims. Our religion is dying, both as a religion and as a society.
We would never have the idea of brandishing a knife to slit a throat! Muslims know that making the simple gesture of cutting the throat is a genuine threat: the knife; Muslims are all too quick to use their knife. A son who abandons Islam knows that his father only has to make this gesture to tell him: “You’re a goner!” A daughter who marries a non-Muslim without her parents’ consent! No one ever dares to speak about it! Well, all the same, it is beginning to become known. This brings back to mind that the world of Islam is a world of terror; for them this terror is quite simply submission to God. But for us, never ever would it occur to a Christian to threaten his son or daughter with a knife for having defied God’s law! Never! I am not saying that we are right, I am not saying that we are wrong. For a long time now, there has been a distinction in our civilisation between God’s absolute right, the truth, and tolerance of error. We are not going to slit the wretch’s throat!
Yet it is certain that our religion is dying and therefore we no longer have any barriers to oppose Islam. And Islam is growing and therefore progressing with vigour and vitality: it is easily carrying the day on the religious level of faith and morals, in the affirmation of what it is doing.
In our courts, now, French Muslims or immigrants impose respect for the Qurʾānic law: “We observe our law.” Someone performs infibulations, excisions on a child, a girl of 12-14 years old, he does a lousy job, she dies in a haemorrhage, the guy who did the operation goes to court, he says: “I obeyed the law of Islam, these are our morals” and the European lawyer pleads by saying that these people observe their religion! Freedom of religion! And finally, he is released! He killed this girl, but he killed her out of adherence to Muslim tradition. What can you reply to that?
Islam is forging ahead; this society is closing in upon itself, is crystallising. It has a police force, whether acknowledged or not, it couldn’t care less. It’s taking a tougher stand, families are controlled. The workers at Renault, for example, all go to prayer, but they are threatened by an invisible police force, the sanctions of which are mutilation or death.
The consequence of this strength is that it impresses. It impresses our intellectuals, it impresses our Pope, cardinals, priests, bishops, activists, etc.
1) Here we enter into the realm of the betrayal of the Church, quite simply: our “faith” is opening up to theirs, it is fading away, we humble ourselves before them, we meet, we discuss the Qurʾān, the Gospel, the Bible, all on an equal footing. Of course, this has a great effect on the common people!
2) Our “democratic society” is also opening – this is a betrayal on the part of the political authority – to those people who are potential voters. In our petty quibbling, our political divisions, it is always in our interest to look for the forces that are spoiling for a fight, that are ready to take to the streets, and so we are in the process of a revolution where the Muslim vote will be decisive. In strife within parties, there are always people who will betray in order to take power and who will not hesitate, either to become Muslims or to pretend to be Muslims – that has no importance for them, it makes no difference to them! – and Islam will conquer us. This will be the revenge for the defeat of Poitiers!●
In concluding this first approach we have to realise that men, whether individually or collectively, are ignorant, cowardly and treacherous. I am quite convinced that when the Pope goes to Morocco to say that we have the same God, the one God, etc., he is being condescending, is simulating the magnificent one who opens his arms to the Sultan of Morocco; inwardly, the Pope knows full well that our religion holds water and that their religion does not! It is because he is with people who are intellectually weaker than himself, people whom he despises or whose religion he despises, that he plays the fine gentleman! As for us, he doesn’t want to see us, because he would be in a difficult position, but with them he reigns. What he doesn’t realise is that, given the vitality of the Muslim world, when he reigns and plays the fine gentleman, it’s simply yesterday’s power that is fading out before tomorrow’s.
Like a king facing a revolution: when Louis XVI agreed to have the Phrygian cap put on his head and to drink a big glass of red wine as a toast to the people, it was a sign that this Louis XVI, however fine, Christian, admirable, he may have been, was a declining power that was acclaiming the violence of the power that would prevail.
You may well say: “It is impossible for the French to become communists! It is impossible for the French to become Muslims!” Yet look at the French one by one! They are little aware of what is taking place, they are susceptible to politics, to the intoxications of the mass media; they have their moral defects: they are capable of abandoning their wife for another woman or having them both at the same time. These are permanent temptations of the individual who has become pagan, practically pagan; in order to succeed in politics, etc.
The powers of Christian nations are degenerated, diminished, shameful. Islam, which is stupid and savage, is taking advantage of the situation.
Brother Michel-Marie: Indeed, Brother Bruno, everything is becoming clearer. Do you remember this analysis, which you read to us, that was published in the February-March 2020 issue of Valeurs actuelles, entitled “The Long Road of Submission”? It details the stages, since the 1970s, of a slow process of Islamisation of our country through mass immigration, which has benefited from the complicity of a whole conglomeration of left-wing associations supporting immigrants, fighting racism, etc., but also of a number of official bodies, State administrations, etc., What should be thought about this issue?
Brother Bruno: The title says it all! “The Long Road to Submission.” But “submission” to whom, and to what? To French law?
Brother Michel-Marie: Not really.
Brother Bruno: The word actually refers to Islam, in the traditional sense. The “long road of submission” is the long road to the establishment of Islam in our old Christian countries! This is why immigration is the breeding ground of Islam in France because this immigration is essentially Muslim! You can’t talk about Islamism without talking about Islam. And as far as stages are concerned, I would go back further than 1970!
Brother Michel-Marie: To 1962? Our abandonment of Algeria?
Brother Bruno: Obviously, to July 1st, 1962, the day when “the Christian perjurer● handed Algeria over to the Muslim assassin.” It’s a phrase of Father de Nantes that sums it all up! French Algeria, which was Christian!
It is decolonisation that is the “original sin”: it is the root cause of all our current ills, of which immigration is not even the most important. The most important is the conquest of our country by Islam! The very Islam that we did not want to convert peacefully when we were colonising North Africa!
Brother Michel-Marie: You are bringing us back to what our Father said in his lecture. This Islamisation in France, this Islamism that we are powerless to fight. Is it the punishment for our past errors?
Brother Bruno: Yes! Decolonisation has deprived these countries of the benefits of our presence and has left them with the worst, that is to say, unholy secular democracy that has maintained disorder and war there for 60 years! While we formed a community, and here I quote Father de Nantes: “One community should exist, not two, where there would be Europeans on one side and Muslims on the other; the colonial institution had united them over five or six generations, forging thousands of bonds between them in an admirable ‘reciprocity of services.’ There was still much progress to be made, but already a concrete, living and historical order had been established, an order that was not a matter for debate, and that had to be saved, inasmuch as forces of evil (the USSR and the capitalist socialist powers) were desperately working to destroy it, from within as well as from outside.”●
A “historical community” is the fruit of divine providence! By overturning this order we have been unfaithful to our civilising mission and we have created all the conditions to bring disorder here.
Brother Michel-Marie: What then, Brother Bruno, was the exact effect of this community that we formed with the Muslims on Islam, particularly in Algeria?
Brother Bruno: Islam was neutralised during the 150 years of the colonisation. It is once again our Father who is going to explain this to you. I quote him: “This is of capital importance for us: hatred, holy war, the anxious fanaticism of Islam have never met Christian universalism without calming down marvellously. Such was the case in the Frankish civilisation of the Crusades, for example, that of Cordoba, and still is today in the fruitful meeting of the French spirit and the Arab world in Syria, Egypt and especially in our North Africa. It cannot be overemphasised: the obsessive susceptibility of Muslim pride exacerbated by racial arrogance quickly calms down in the presence of a tolerant, fraternal colonisation. Before the current unrest, there was a sort of liberating Edict of Nantes● in Africa, under our influence. And let us not imagine here that we are talking about the atheist tolerance of the official world; this is the source of holy war against the infidel – that is, the apostate secular French republican, a miscreant, a pagan. – It is rather the religious tolerance of Christianity. Since their religion is not one of racial pride but of universal charity, Christians affirm that people who believe in God can come to an understanding. In this sense, Father de Foucauld, the heavenly protector of our Africa, became the “universal brother.”●
If there is any chance of civilising and spiritualising the Arab world, our discovery of the origin of the Qurʾān, which we spoke about yesterday, shows that it is still up to Christian France, its missionaries, its educators, its soldiers and even the least of its colonists, to spread our Christian civilisation as an application of the mystery of the Visitation of the Virgin Mary to Her cousin Elizabeth as taught and practised by Father de Foucauld. But this is for the future!
What an immense loss we have made by abandoning these countries, for them and for us! No wonder that today things have turned against us who are responsible, because of the democracy and religious freedom that is our substitute for religion!
Brother Michel-Marie – Brother Bruno, the misfortune is that you are the only one to explain this and to say that Islam is the punishment of our dereliction and apostasy. The State and our Catholic Hierarchy are still committed to their efforts to fight “radical Islam” and to promote a “moderate Islam,” respectful of the values of the Republic and of religious freedom. But, in short, what is “moderate Islam”?
Brother Bruno - The distinction made between “radical Islam” and “moderate Islam” is absolutely fallacious: “moderate Islam” has never existed except in the minds of apostate Christians who love comfort, hygiene and “security,” that is to say, the absence of risk. This distinction is the creation of people who do not know the Qurʾān and who, for the ideological reasons of human rights, of the transcendent dignity of the human person, voluntarily blind themselves to Islam. It is the cult of man, without regard for the historical and existent community that I mentioned earlier, which was only begging to survive.
There is only one Islam, deriving from the Qurʾān, from which a peaceful and tolerant religion will never emerge, since, as we have seen, it is the product of a resolute determination to abolish Christianity and Judaism. Its aim is to return to Abraham’s and Ishmael’s so-called ‘authentic’ “perfect religion,” ʾislam, – perfect is what the word means. The author of the Qurʾān accuses Jews and Christians of having been unfaithful to it.
The Qurʾān divides the human race into two categories: the “faithful” who have embraced the “perfect religion” and the “apostates”: Jews and Christians, against whom war is inexpiable. Islam, against Christianity, tends to dominate the universe – one should not speak of universalism – with alternating victories and defeats, truces agreed upon to ensure commercial interests. But the goal remains and will always remain the same: the definitive victory of Islam, through the extermination of the apostates, or their reduction to slavery unless they convert to Islam which, to a great extent, is currently underway!
This is what Father de Foucauld explained. Although Muslims might well be submitted to us, live peacefully under our administration, they were nevertheless patiently waiting for the Mahdi who would turn back the tide and make them victorious over the “roumis.”● The situation remains the same.
Brother Michel-Marie: In a conference on the Qurʾān, in 2014, you quoted Frédéric Pons who very rightly analysed● that military and police measures will not prevail over Islamism since they fail “to go to the source of the evil and to understand that Islamism thrives in a particular breeding ground: Islam.” But he continued: “Today Islam has the challenge of recognising these few violent fountainheads where the Islamists quench their thirst, then of reforming or adapting whatever is required. This will be difficult. The Qurʾān, a timeless, divine dictation is neither adaptable nor reformable. For eight centuries it has been forbidden to criticise it.”
Brother Bruno: For the good reason that if the critical method already used to study the Bible which stood up well under scrutiny, were to be applied, as we did yesterday, to criticise the Qurʾān, nothing of it will remain. So it is not a question of it being “difficult” for Muslims to accept this critical method, it is utterly impossible for them, since they surround the Qurʾān with the greatest veneration and regard it as a “divine dictation,” all the more miraculous because they are unable to understand it.
It is an illusion to believe that Muslim authorities will sincerely agree to “reform or adapt whatever is required”: they are neither Modernists nor Progressivists!
Brother Michel-Marie: Thank you Brother Bruno, at least, it’s clear! Yet if there is no such thing as moderate Islam, neither are all Muslims living in France Islamists! How are we to understand?
Brother Bruno: If a distinction can be made, it is between Islam and Muslims: many Muslims are good people. We experience this every day in the streets and, in the past, in the days of French Algeria we really experienced it. They want nothing more than to live in peace, but they are vegetating in a false religion. It is up to us to show them, patiently, courteously the love of Jesus and Mary, and they will rediscover the religion of their ancestors, that is to say, Saint Augustine, Saint Cyprian, and generations of Christians before Islam. This might come about more rapidly than we would think possible.
This is on the condition that we don’t let them be press-ganged by the jihadists! That’s what makes the difference: if we let them become fanatical about the jihad, all is lost. Initially, they can be influenced either by good or bad people. Because the Islamists are on the lookout like predators, wild beasts! They are killers that must be killed before they kill all of us Christians. That’s clear! We are for God and not for the Devil: no understanding with Islam is possible, only circumstantial tolerance for the sake of peace, as our Point 6 says, on the condition that we are stronger than them, not in order to oppress them, but to convert them to civilisation.
Brother Michel-Marie: Brother Bruno, to wind-up this interview, the article of Valeurs actuelles that I mentioned earlier, has a conclusion that seems to me lucid and very fair, what do you think of it: “What does Emmanuel Macron propose today [to regain the ground lost to Islamism]? The ‘republican reconquest’? It’s an illusion, republican narcissism. These famous ‘values’ to which everyone is supposed to want to adhere. When are we going to understand that Islam proposes a universalism more complete and more powerful than ours? Muslims could not care less about the Republic.”
Brother Bruno: That’s true! The author is lucid and the Muslims are not the only ones who just don’t care about the Republic! So the observation is true: Muslims couldn’t care less about the Republic, which they deeply despise as a weak regime, which they know how to take advantage of.
On the other hand, it is false to say that Islam offers a more complete universalism than ours! Unless, of course, they mean the republican regime of liberty-equality-fraternity. And that’s an admission! But the only universalism that stands fast, of which Islam is nothing but a caricature, is Christianity!
It is up to us to bring these unfortunate Muslims back! So be it, and see you tomorrow.
Modernism and Progressivism are two distinct heresies. They both develop from an attempt to adapt religious faith to what their proponents consider to be the exigencies of modern thought and society. Modernism destroys the content of the very dogmas of the Catholic Faith. Progressivism, on the other hand, rejects the century-old institutions and traditions of the Church that are seen as being radically unfaithful to the Spirit of Christ. In short, Progressivists detest the Church as she is and dream of a global reform of her institutions and a mystical revolution of masses inspired by the Spirit.
“A free Church in a free State” was the theme of Montalembert’s discourse in Malines, Belgian, on August 22, 1863. Lamennais, Lacordaire and Montalembert dreamed of marrying God and Liberty, the Church and the Revolution, and called for “a free Church in a free State”, meaning a State without God, the democratic state (1830-1870).”
From the beginning of the 8th century invaders from North Africa had taken over Spain. They finally crossed the Pyrenees and were working their way northward. Traditionally Charles Martel’s victory over these invading forces in the Battle of Poitiers (733 a.d.) is hailed as a victory of Christianity over the Islamic Jihad. Modern scholars, however, say that this is not so obvious. The texts speak of incursions of Saracens. Quoting the work of Jean-Henri Roy and Jean Deviosse, (Gallimard, 1966), Father de Nantes asks the question: Who are the Saracens? in an article entitled: The Arabs, the Qurʾān, Islam, Cruelty, Fanaticism, Totalitarianism? Catholic Counter-Reformation no. 125, August 1980:
“I would like to research into the identity of the ‘Saracens’ whom Charles Martel defeated at Poitiers. There, however, is nothing identifiable with reference to these elusive desert wanderers and raiders, constantly on the move. All that remains is legend. Jean-Henri Roy and Jean Deviosse even find it difficult to establish the fact of the Battle of Poitiers or to fix its most probable date, October 17, 733. As for the combatants, their ethnic origin and number? There were very few genuine Arabs among them […].
Saracens is a term simply meaning miscreants. They are warriors, people who plunder and then move on. By the 8th century everyone knew what to expect; it was an ancestral habit of the great invaders. The only difference was that this time they were coming from the South and not from the North. If possible one fought them or else welcomed them and then used them as best one could against a neighbouring enemy.’ […]
Talking of this century of conquest, Jean Deviosse, who nevertheless accepts blindfolded the whole legend of Muḥammad, the Qurʾān and Islam, has to admit when speaking of what he knows for certain: ‘As for religious motives, there were none at all, or at least hardly any.’ He says that of Charles Martel, betaking himself to meet the invader. It is also true, however, of the invader himself, whose only thought was warlike conquest, but never religion. His own? He did not have any. That of others? He was completely indifferent.”
The “Christian perjurer” was General Charles de Gaulle, the President of the French Republic at the time. He had solemnly committed himself to keeping the colony of Algeria as was the desire of the vast majority of the populations of Algeria. Instead, he contrived to hand it over to Muslim terrorists supported by the Soviet Union. In his Letter to My Friends, no. 112, July 1, 1962, Father de Nantes wrote: “On the July 1, feast of Our Lord’s Precious Blood, the Christian perjurer has handed Algeria over to the Muslim assassin. This monstrous betrayal is the fruit of a close, conscious and fully violent collaboration of Authority with the Enemy in the crucifixion of an entire historic community, French in name and Christian in soul. It is an unprecedented fact in the history of our country.”
Une Communauté historique à sauver, L’Ordre français no. 6, November 1956, quoted in He is Risen no. 54, Feb. 2007, p. 25)
The Edict of Nantes was an edict of pacification promulgated by King Henry IV in the city of Nantes in 1598 to put an end to the civil war between the Huguenot Calvinists and the Holy League. The clauses of the Edict were far too favourable towards the Protestants but the King considered that he could not be more exacting under the circumstances. It allowed a certain tranquility to prevail.
L’Islam sous la toise, L’Ordre Français no. 8, January 1957, p. 76
An Arabic term, etymologically derived from “Rome,” usually applied disparaging by Muslims to Christian Europeans.
Valeurs Actuelles, October 9, 2014, p. 40